Here’s the second part of my recent interview with conductor Anne Manson. Our focus at this point shifted to a discussion of Orphée and to some of the various musical aspects of Glass’ score.
BK: It seems to me that once you get into opera and works for the stage, it’s possible to make a stronger connection to our own experiences. We can relate to something there in a way that we can’t in Verdi or Puccini, where the music there often feeds our emotional responses. In a piece like Orphée, the music doesn’t do that.
AM: [Orphée] is first and foremost a piece of theater, and that’s part of the success of Philip Glass’ music when he writes for the stage. He understands something about theater, and I think that this opera connects with us because it’s a very, very strong piece of theater. Also, in a very strong production.
BK: In thinking about the sound world of the opera, there is an evocation of French music…
AM: Absolutely.
BK: …which at times reminds me of Poulenc or Milhaud, but I’d be hard pressed to pin that down.
AM: I heard that he wrote this piece, or he wrote a lot of it, when he was living in France for a year. I don’t know if that’s true or not. There’s definitely a French kind of harmonic world – I think more of a kind of Satie-like world—and he uses that more in the voices than in the [accompaniment, which is] fairly diatonic. A lot of the extended harmonies – the major 7ths and minor 9ths and so forth – are in the voices, but I do think that it gives what sounds to our ear a very French color. And it’s not just that. The way he sets the language, he’s trying to set the language in a naturalistic way. He’s not setting it in a chanting, Satyagraha, way. He’s trying to write a through-composed piece, so the orchestration, what we play in the orchestra, does not sound like what you’d get in a through-composed piece, but the voices are written that way.
BK: At times the vocal line seems to be closely tied to the harmonic content, and at other times the connection is just barely there.
AM: Yes. And it’s quite difficult to pitch.
BK: It’s a very interesting effect, and it seems to imply that the two are operating on different planes. You have the accompaniment and you have the vocal line, which is almost like spoken dialogue in a film. They’re not necessarily pitched together.
AM: In working through the piece and hearing them sing it and watching them act it and sing it at the same time, I do wonder whether [Glass] uses those dissonant moments to show some degree of strangeness, or a step removed, something that’s a little out of reality. And a lot of the piece is, you’re not sure what reality is.
BK: One of the other thing I’ve noticed is the unusual phrase structure. There’ll often be large sections within a scene where we get four- bar and five-bar phrases.
AM: Yes.
BK: And within the same scene, [Glass] also has a nested section written just in four-bar phrases. The analyst in me wants to see some connection between this and the drama. But I also wonder if that’s related in any way to Glass’ involvement in writing film music, where a scene will have its own internal rhythm that the music has to match. Maybe it’s a way of notating that flexibility.
AM: I don’t know about that. I saw the film [Orphée] when I was preparing the opera the first time and it’s been several years since I’ve seen it. I don’t know whether, within the actual pacing of an individual scene, he’s trying to capture the timing of the film.
BK: That irregular phrase structure really stood out when I played through the piece. And in the scene in the second act after Orphée, Eurydice, and Heurtebise return from the underworld, it helps to reinforce the off-kilter situation they find themselves in. At other times, it’s not immediately obvious and might be entirely subconscious.
AM: In that scene with the three of them – you mean the scene that’s really hard [laughs] – I think [Glass] is shooting for a little bit of a French farce feeling, so it’s all moving kind of fast and funny.
BK: And with the alternating meters, everything is just a bit off its axis at that point.
AM: Right, right.
BK: We should probably address a few of the perceptions – or misperceptions – some people have about Glass’ music. I’m coming to realize that Orphée has an especially rich score, and I suspect that audiences may find some of their assumptions thrown into question when they experience it.
AM: One of the things that happened when I was preparing this piece was that I spoke to a composer I know who knows Philip’s music and knows Philip, and also who has a friend who plays in his ensemble, and he said that one of things people don’t always realize about Philip is that when he plays his own music, it’s quite free. He takes time, he expands. I saw him do [a concert version of] Einstein on the Beach at Carnegie Hall just a year or a year a half so ago, and my friend was absolutely right. It doesn’t have a rigid quality that I think people sometimes associate with this music. And I’ve tried very hard to do that with this opera, to choose points where it can be free and let it be free. I’ve talked to the orchestra a lot about listening to the stage and following the stage, so that we’re not putting the singers in a strait jacket. There are certain scenes, like the one you were just describing, where it goes and they just have to stay with us, but there’s a fair amount of flexibility. I feel the more you take advantage of that flexibility, the richer the piece gets.
BK: And he notates some of that flexibility. In Act One, the very end of the scene between Eurydice and Heurtebise…
AM: Exactly.
BK: The shifts in meter seem to suggest again the flexible rhythms of a film scene.
AM: But I also think it suggests a very effective use of theater. [Glass has] got a sense of the stage and of what’s happening between the two of them and he leaves a kind of breath there, a kind of pregnant breath, and if you take advantages of these moments, the piece really starts to breathe. It gets richer and it gets warmer. There’s a lot of room in this piece for warm, cantabile playing. Not rigid, clean playing, but changes of color in how you approach different sections, and I think that also gives the piece depth. I don’t know exactly how it works or why it works, but I can tell you it works. And at the end you can tell as a performer whether you feel you’ve made a satisfying journey or not. And even though the ending is unresolved, you feel it’s been an incredibly satisfying journey, and that’s partly because the music has variation in color and form and rhythm, and possibilities for expanding and possibilities for warmth, and also sometimes rhythmic drive that forces the action forward. I think there’s a fairly broad palette here that we can take advantage of, and that’s part of what makes it successful.
BK: You mentioned the lack of resolution. Another very effective device is that last chord [juxtaposing C minor and C major], a kind of musical and dramatic question mark…
AM: Exactly! The final chord! Sometimes I put that chord down and I wonder, will people know…
BK: It’s very different from the ending of Cocteau’s film, where the music is, in a strange way, more triumphant.
AM: I think the film gives more of an impression of a happy ending between Orphée and Eurydice. Certainly in this case, in this production, the ending is very open.
BK: The fact that things aren’t wrapped up at the end certainly gets us thinking about what’s happened and about the relationships that exist between these characters.
AM: It’s important to point out that it is a piece of theater and it will make you think, but you don’t have to think. It’s not something that’s going to be a huge challenge when you walk in, because what goes on is kind of entrancing, you get taken up by it. So it’s not a piece where you have to think, “Alright, here we go. We’re going to improve ourselves.” It’s very easy to watch and get caught up in this world and yet it also stimulates you. At Glimmerglass, people go out and have a box lunch or box supper at the interval, and you’d hear people asking [as soon as they left], “What does the Princess mean?”, “What does Orphée mean?”, everybody talking to each other…and it was really rewarding to hear that…a real level of engaged involvement on the part of the audience.
BK: Just one more question before we wrap up. What is it like to come back to this piece after a couple of years away from it?
AM: It’s really nice. It’s really nice. We worked very hard on it, not just to get the notes right, but to develop it as a work, to see where it took us, and it feels like a real luxury to come back to it again.